S2E7: Workflow Learning: Making Learning Happen on the Job with Chris King

Meg Fairchild [: 00:00:00

Hey, Megan, let's do a podcast.

Megan Torrance [: 00:00:03

Great idea. What should we talk about? For this episode, I had an opportunity to sit down with Chris King and talk about his work and his thoughts around workflow learning. It's a very fancy word. It sounds really cool, but I really wanted to get to the heart of what it is. And Chris is a learning strategist. He's worked with the five Moments of Need, Conrad Goffertson and Bob Mosher's company at Apply Synergies, and brings so much to the table in this conversation. But first, I want to say how I met Chris King, because this is a fantastic networking tip.

Megan Torrance [: 00:00:50

When I go into conferences, I go ahead and get a reservation for a big group of people, like 10 or 12 people, whatever we can find for one of the nights of the conference. Because I am one of those people who, unless I have a thing to do with the end of the day of the conference, I'm going to go back to my room and I'm going to open up my laptop, I'm going to do a whole bunch of work and I'm probably going to eat a protein bar for dinner and call it good. But when I go to a conference, the whole point of going out to a conference is to meet people, to learn from other people, to build my network. Otherwise I could just stay home, watch webinars and read books, right? So what we do is ahead of time, we make hotel or not hotel reservations, we make dinner reservations for a large group. It's hard to make dinner reservations for a large group on the day of, but two or three weeks in advance, totally easy. So then I just go around the conference and as I talk to people and they're an interesting person, I'm like, hey, do you have dinner plans? And if they don't, I'll just add them to my group. And then what I've done is I've curated 10 or 12 people who are, you know, interesting people to talk to. All have something in common because we're all at the conference and we have these fantastic relationships, conversations and super fun dinners.

Megan Torrance [: 00:02:08

I don't pay for it. It's just people walking around and it's a whole lot of fun. So at a conference, gosh, probably a more than a decade ago at this point, Chris and I were having a talking in the hallway and I said, hey, do you have dinner plans? He said, no. And, well, the rest is history. So enjoy this conversation. Chris, I'm so happy to have the chance to just like mind meld with you and share ideas with you and bounce some stuff around. In the course of doing my job, I get to talk to so many really smart people about the things that they're really smart about. And what I love about the podcast is that we get to share that conversation with other people and, and, and they get to listen in.

Megan Torrance [: 00:03:01

And so. Thank you. Thanks for joining me.

Chris King [: 00:03:04

Oh, you're welcome, Megan. I'm happy to be here because I love talking about this stuff.

Megan Torrance [: 00:03:09

Well, right. I mean, it's super cool. Can you give everybody just a quick introduction? Who are you? What do you do? What's your thing?

Chris King [: 00:03:17

Yeah. So, Chris King. I am a learning strategist and a performance support geek. I have, I've been doing L and D for the better part of three decades now, which makes me sound really old, so I must have started when I was 10. But, but no, it's, it's interesting actually. So, so I, I have, I'm self taught. I started as a trainer in the classroom teaching Windows 95 and things like that, and taught myself instructional design, taught myself development using authoring tools. And so I don't come at this from a formal perspective.

Chris King [: 00:04:00

So when a framework, a more formally designed and developed framework speaks to me, it makes me stand up and kind of pay attention to it. And that's really where the five Moments need struck me as I was struggling to figure out how to support learners in their moment of need and realizing that we didn't have all the tools that we needed in the, in the trainer toolkit. And so I've, I've, it reminded me that I needed to look outside of the L and D discipline for other things. Not that five Moments of Need is outside the L and D discipline. That's Bob Mosher and Conrad Godfrey. They're. They have been around for a long time in L and D. And, and so this is workflow learning is what I do these days.

Chris King [: 00:04:45

Megan, to answer your question. And workflow learning is really kind of bringing the learning as close to the work as possible so that people don't have to stop working to learn the thing that they need to learn to do something. It really comes down to changing behavior on the job. And if we're not changing behaviors and increasing productivity, then why are we doing what we're doing? And that's, that's really what it comes down to.

Megan Torrance [: 00:05:10

Well, and that's the thing, right? Change of behavior kind of is the whole point. And in a classroom or in front of an E learning module, I'm not doing the behavior. I'm not Anywhere near the behavior.

Chris King [: 00:05:20

Right.

Megan Torrance [: 00:05:20

I've been pulled away from my behavior, maybe to change my behavior or improve my behavior. So can you give some examples of what workflow learning then, is? Because it's one of those things that sounds delicious.

Chris King [: 00:05:36

Yes.

Megan Torrance [: 00:05:36

What's it actually mean?

Chris King [: 00:05:37

Yeah, what it. What it means is just what I said earlier. It's. It's putting the work as close to the learning as possible. It means that there are things that you can do to learn how to do the job you're doing that doesn't require you to stop and go to a classroom or stop and take an E learning course. If you think about the way people learn and the way people have learned for years for. For as long as we've been people, it's by trial and error. And, you know, sometimes.

Chris King [: 00:06:05

Sometimes that works out well, and sometimes it doesn't. Either way, especially when it doesn't work out like you expect it to work out, it teaches a lesson, and we learn things by doing them. And so workflow learning is about helping people learn while they're doing. And I think that is the essence of what we in the L and D space should be focused on, is finding ways to help people learn while they do the work. Because we're not. No. Nobody works in a place where you learn for the sake of learning. We're here to learn because we need to do something.

Megan Torrance [: 00:06:41

And I think that you just said is a big thing for anybody who's listening, who's in a higher ed space or a transitioning teacher. That's one of that. That paradigm shift that our learners are not here to learn, they are here to work, is one of the biggest paradigm shifts for somebody who's moving from that space.

Chris King [: 00:07:03

Yes.

Megan Torrance [: 00:07:04

So, Chris, I have a question then, because once we find a buzzword in this industry that we like, we want to apply it to everything. So I understand that in the classroom or standing in front of an E, learning is not right. That is in the learning space, not in the flow of work. Are there other things that are kind of not. They might be erroneously or innocently misapplied as workflow learning, but really are not what we're talking about here.

Chris King [: 00:07:40

Yeah. So when somebody says, oh, yeah, there's a video for that, I can watch that video while I'm. While I'm at work. That is not workflow learning, because you are still. You still have to stop doing what you're doing to pay attention to the video. So, like, microlearning is not really workflow learning. Elearning is definitely not workflow learning. You know, even having a manual open while you do the work, that's pretty adjacent to workflow learning.

Chris King [: 00:08:13

But you still are splitting your attention between reading what needs to be done and doing what. What needs to be done. And so, you know, ultimately, if in the purest sense, workflow learning is doing the work and learning as you're. You're doing it. And so the question becomes, how do we make it so that people can learn while they do it without breaking things or costing the company money or hurting somebody?

Megan Torrance [: 00:08:39

Okay, so breaking things and costing a lot of money and hurting other people seem like a bad, bad idea. Just, just saying, how do we decide what makes sense to do as workflow learning? And how do we say. Because I'm guessing there's still a place for formal learning.

Chris King [: 00:08:59

Oh, yeah, for sure. So this is the framework of the five moments of learning need. So this is Conrad Gofferson's brainchild. He says there are five times five moments where people need to learn something. And so the five moments are learn new when you're. You're introduced to a topic for the first time. And learn more, which is when you're deepening your understanding of a topic. There's apply, which is when you're actually using that knowledge.

Chris King [: 00:09:24

There's solve, when you are having. When something isn't working like you're expecting it to, and you have to fix something. And then there's change, where something is changing in the environment or in the organization or in the process, and you have to unlearn in order to relearn. So new, more, Apply, solve, and change. New and more is our wheelhouse in L and D. That is what we do. We do it well. It's the formal learning in the formal, informal learning mix, right? So the informal learning, and I'm using air quotes here, is apply, solve, and change.

Chris King [: 00:10:02

Because L and D doesn't know how to do that. And so we just toss it over the fence and say, hey, it's informal learning. Somebody else has to worry about that. And so new and more is there is a place for you to learn something for the first time and to deepen your understanding of a topic. That's the classroom. That's the E learning, that's watching the video. That's helping you grasp the concepts. It's helping you get the context for why you're doing the things you're doing.

Chris King [: 00:10:27

But that moment of apply is when the rubber hits the road and you actually have to do something with that knowledge. That's the Most important of the moments in the professional world that we work in. So having a way to think about formal learning and informal learning in these five different categories gets us into a place where we can start thinking about how's the best way to support a learner or a performer as they're doing the work in one of those five moments of learning need.

Megan Torrance [: 00:10:57

So what are some of the things that working along the project that say, oh, this is a project, what should get my antenna quivering around? Workflow learning?

Chris King [: 00:11:12

Yeah, it's when you've got a process or a procedure that people are doing and maybe it's something that needs to be consistently done, or maybe it's something that you don't do very often, but when you do it, there's kind of high stakes around it. I'll give you an example of that. So there was an organization I was working with and we were doing EEO work with them and the reason they came to us was because somebody in one of the branch offices had missed a deadline on an informal EEO complaint and that caused the complaint to go formal. And the long story is that they wound up having to pay out a million dollars from this formal EEO complaint and no amount of training or elearning would have helped that person meet that deadline. Right. And so that is one of those places where if you're not familiar with the process and there are time based gates in the process, you need some help, you need some reminder, you need some step by step guide that's going to help you complete that in the consistent manner that it needs to be completed in.

Megan Torrance [: 00:12:27

Love it. Okay, so I'm going to ask you the opposite question. Boss comes in, says, need you to make a training program and you are listening to them and you're like, I don't think this is a training program. Like that's not going to solve your problem. The boss has lots and lots of big ideas about training. Formal learning classrooms, elearning, mobile learning. Fancy, right? Are there ways to be creative about workflow learning when you're being asked to do training?

Chris King [: 00:13:04

So I have two lines of thinking on that, Megan. So let me start with the first one. This is where I take off my performance support hat and put on my performance consulting hat. And at that point I will start asking questions about the process and about the environment and all of those things that fall outside of the purview of training and try to get to the root cause to help the boss understand that this is not a training issue. I can create all the training in the world for you, but it's not going to solve your problem because it's not a training issue. And so that is a separate conversation above and beyond performance support, where you have to help the stakeholder diagnose what the real problem is. And that's a conversation that you can have regardless of whether you're building workflow, learning or elearning or any kind of onboarding, any kind of learning needs to have that conversation up front. And that's performance consulting.

Chris King [: 00:14:05

And we should have another conversation about that or find some smart people to invite to the next one of these things.

Megan Torrance [: 00:14:11

Oh, we absolutely can. Right. But I mean, that's the whole Gilbert Binder, the, you know, the six reasons why people aren't doing what we want them to do. The very last thing we hammer, we bring out to solve that problem is training.

Chris King [: 00:14:26

Yeah.

Megan Torrance [: 00:14:27

Yeah.

Chris King [: 00:14:28

Now let me. The other, the other line of thinking that I was running with on this, that immediately came to mind is, is what I like to call the Frank Nguyen approach to, to these kind of training requests. So, and this, this is something I do a lot with performance support, because performance support, workflow learning, people don't know what that is. And so I could spend hours or days or weeks trying to explain what it is, or I could just do what they asked me to do and give them what I know they need. And so I was, I was at a conference, it was a performance sport conference, and Frank Nguyen, who was at the time the CLO of Sears, he was on a panel, and somebody said, frank, you deliver a lot of performance support in your job. How, how have you convinced all of your stakeholders to, to. To do this? And he said, I don't, I didn't convince them at all. I give them training.

Chris King [: 00:15:18

They come to me as the chief Learning Officer and they say, I need training. And so I say, okay, I'll make you some training. And then I go and I build them the thing that they. They need, which is performance support. And I take it back to them and I hand it to them and I say, here's your training. And they go, wow, this is amazing. I didn't even know I needed this. And he says, that's what you do, is you have to meet them where they are and their expectations.

Chris King [: 00:15:40

And so sometimes when the stakeholder comes and says, I need training, and, you know, it's something different. Don't fight that fight. Just build what they need and call it training and hand it to them and they'll be happy.

Megan Torrance [: 00:15:50

I love it. It's very cool. Reason to love Frank.

Chris King [: 00:15:53

Yes.

Megan Torrance [: 00:15:57

All right. This is fantastic. We could talk all day. You know that. And maybe we should talk more often, which we can do.

Chris King [: 00:16:06

I like it.

Megan Torrance [: 00:16:07

Let's do the podcaster. Go to lightning round.

Chris King [: 00:16:12

Okay.

Megan Torrance [: 00:16:13

Three questions. First question, what's a book? You don't have to have read it, but what's a book that you think everybody ought to be reading right now?

Chris King [: 00:16:25

Oh, I just finished reading Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman, Megan. And that was really helpful for me to kind of put myself in a place where I was thinking about how should I build out my team and who do I need to partner with to make myself better and more productive? So if you're. If you're looking to think about how to structure a team and what kind of personalities you need on that team, I would highly recommend that book, Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman. I also have always handy next to me, my super dad jokes book. So, you know, so I'll just say that, you know, hey, Megan, I was watching a movie on my computer, but my cat kept stopping it. I guess she found the pause button.

Megan Torrance [: 00:17:13

Yeah, yeah, Good one. Good one.

Chris King [: 00:17:17

Gotta love the dad jokes, especially these days.

Megan Torrance [: 00:17:20

The dad game is strong at your house.

Chris King [: 00:17:22

Yes.

Megan Torrance [: 00:17:25

Favorite snack while you're working?

Chris King [: 00:17:27

Oh, right now, it's gotta be nerd clusters. These are like, you know, the old nerds with the. It's just the candy, but these are paired with gummy globes, and so it's like a globe of crunchy sweet goodness. I really am into those right now.

Megan Torrance [: 00:17:46

I'm intrigued. I was thinking a nerd cluster was either a fantastic learning engineering team or some server array of some sort.

Chris King [: 00:17:54

It could be both.

Megan Torrance [: 00:17:55

Even better. We could work faster with a lot of nerd clusters. Nerd clusters. For our nerd clusters. Favorite fidget toy.

Chris King [: 00:18:10

I have several fidget toys that I love, but the one I'm holding right now is my grip Pro squeezy ring. It's a grip strength trainer. I bought it when I was rock climbing a lot, and I still. I don't climb rocks a lot, but I won't find myself squeezing my. My grip Pro ring a lot. So let's go with that one. Maybe may, maybe.

Megan Torrance [: 00:18:39

Awesome. Chris, thank you so much for joining me for this, and I will. I'll see you out there.

Chris King [: 00:18:46

That sounds great, Megan. Talk to you soon.

Meg Fairchild [: 00:18:59

So how'd that go, Megan?

Megan Torrance [: 00:19:01

You know, that was super fun. Chris and I are doing a lot of work together right now, and so a lot of the times when we're talking. We're talking about very, very tactical stuff. And it was nice to step back and just talk learning strategy and performance consulting strategy, because there's a huge part of the work that we do is not just doing the work, but figuring out what work are we doing. So that was really cool. And his dad joke game is pretty strong.

Meg Fairchild [: 00:19:31

This is Meg Fairchild and Megan Torrance, and this has been a podcast from Torrance Learning. Tangents is the official podcast of Torrance Learning, as though we have an unofficial one.

Meg Fairchild [: 00:19:43

Tangents is hosted by Meg Fairchild and Megan Torrance. It's produced by Dean Castilla and Meg Fairchild, engineered and edited by Dean Castile, with original music also by Dean Castile. This episode was fact checked by Meg Fairchild.